Hesteeierkommunikasjon med Annelies Decloedt, episode 2: Å forstå hesteeieren bak fordommer og antakelser

00:00:15: Welcome back to the second episode that we are recording with Annalis de Klut from the University of Ghent, where we talk about horse owner communication and how to tailor your communication to horse owners to help them understand why they should follow your advice, basically, and to get them to do that.

00:00:39: So in this episode, we're going to work focus around different types of horse owners and how you can tailor your communication to different types.

00:00:48: So the first thing I'm going to ask you on the list is why is it problematic to categorize horse owners into different types?

00:00:56: I just said that we're going to talk about the different types, but why can that be a problem to categorize horse owners like this?

00:01:04: Yeah, so I have to say that I'm not a big fan of categorizing horse owners and especially not when it's like the more simple types of categories.

00:01:17: For example, the disc model where you have the four colors and you have, you know, this is a yellow or a blue or a red horse owner.

00:01:26: And

00:01:26: the reason for that is actually, it started when I collaborated with somebody from our organizational psychology department, who is actually on LinkedIn doing monthly reminders of why these models are not scientifically based.

00:01:41: So he has monthly, there's another

00:01:44: opinion

00:01:45: paper that he shares or other things, because actually, for example, the disk model or the insights model.

00:01:51: There's not really much evidence base to it, meaning that,

00:01:56: well,

00:01:57: one, it's actually not very repeatable.

00:01:59: So if you would test yourself and you turn out to be yellow and you would take the test again a month later, you might be blue.

00:02:08: So it's not very repeatable.

00:02:09: And also, it's not very... Well, in predicting behaviors.

00:02:16: So it's not because you turned out to be blue that you're always going to be like blue would be then consensious.

00:02:23: So being more focused on, you know, on details and things like that.

00:02:28: But.

00:02:30: It doesn't really predict your behavior in different situations, which does not mean that there are different personality types.

00:02:38: Of course, there are, and there are also other tests.

00:02:41: If you want to look at personality like the big five personality test, which is going to give you a score for five different personality traits, but it's not going to classify you into like one.

00:02:54: color type.

00:02:55: And I think that's something that we should be aware of, that if you try to classify people into four different types, that doesn't cover the complexity of personality.

00:03:10: And it doesn't really tell you how people are going to respond in different situations, because it's not because somebody is very dominant for example in a professional situation that this person is going to behave the same when it comes to a personal situation or an emotional situation.

00:03:31: So I think that's why we should be a bit careful with categorizing whores owners and then like stereotyping them like that.

00:03:40: I'm imagining then that this could also apply to, for example, if you notice someone's behavior in one situation, let's say you're out there vaccinating their horses on a regular basis and then at one point you go there for an emergency you might have a completely different situation and the behavior of the horse owner that you think you thought you knew her or him is going to behave completely different.

00:04:10: Yes, I think that's indeed one thing, so that different situations can get different responses.

00:04:18: On the other hand, there's also something which they call the halo and horn effect of the... prejudices that we have about people.

00:04:30: So the halo effect would be if you think of somebody in a positive way, like, oh, yeah, this is going to be an enthusiastic horizontal, which is going to follow my recommendations.

00:04:39: For example, if you approach them like that, it's probably also going to happen.

00:04:43: While if you approach someone thinking that's done the horn effect, you know, the little devil, like thinking like, oh, this is going to be somebody who is not gonna listen to me and who is not going to be interested in following my plan.

00:05:00: then that is probably going to happen.

00:05:01: And that's also what happens with these models.

00:05:05: If you stereotype people like, oh, this is a blue person and you approach them that way.

00:05:10: And especially in your team, for example, there's the danger that you would think of, okay, let's give those type of tasks to that blue person.

00:05:19: And so you're going to reinforce actually their behavior.

00:05:22: So in that way, that it's also important to just be open minded to to however the person might respond in different situations?

00:05:37: I'm thinking also that, as you say, if you have the assumption when you meet a horse owner that this one is going to be easy.

00:05:46: I know this person, she's always very relaxed and we can talk really well.

00:05:52: Then you're probably going to have a good conversation and the chances of her following your advice is probably good.

00:05:58: Then you have the situation with with difficult people and you have this sort of yeah the horn mentality when you go into this consultation.

00:06:09: Obviously it's good to be open minded but you have some practical tips on how you can approach these.

00:06:15: situation with horse owners that you sort of, you know, this is going to be difficult.

00:06:20: Like, how can you make the situation less difficult with your approach?

00:06:23: You know what

00:06:24: I mean?

00:06:24: Yes.

00:06:25: So, um, so actually it's one of the things that that's owners and clients find very important.

00:06:30: Uh, there, there's Ryan Angler is, is a communication, uh, scientist, uh, was just veterinarian, uh, looking at communication skills in the U

00:06:39: S and, um, she

00:06:40: found that.

00:06:41: unconditional positive regard is something that clients really value.

00:06:45: So they just want to be, it's unconditional positive regard.

00:06:49: They always want to be treated respectful and in a positive way.

00:06:56: Now, of course, in practice, it's really hard to stop rolling your eyes as you see this owner walk in or as you have them on the phone.

00:07:07: a number of things.

00:07:08: I think one of the things is really also in your non-verbal communication, which I had a student who had to call people because their bills were not paid from the phone company bills.

00:07:19: And what they told her is to approach because you already know that you're going to call someone and ask them about the bills.

00:07:26: So that you try to be a little bit naive when you come into that conversation.

00:07:30: So you're not going to call them and say,

00:07:32: hey,

00:07:33: I see that you haven't paid your bill.

00:07:34: What's going on?

00:07:36: why you already have some judgment there?

00:07:38: but you're gonna like try and be well not overly enthusiastic, but on purpose, enthusiastic and positive towards that person.

00:07:46: So in that phone call, she needed to change her intonation a little bit and go like, hey, I see that you haven't paid your bill.

00:07:55: Like really, you know, going a bit higher with your intonation and being really positive.

00:08:01: And she said, well, I didn't think it was going to work.

00:08:03: But then as I was calling all these people, I found out that it does work.

00:08:09: So that's going to be like in your non-verbal communication, like trying to approach them in a positive way, your intonation, your posture, like an open part.

00:08:17: That is going to be important.

00:08:20: And then, of course, also in what you say, again, trying with difficult people, or what we call difficult people, because in communication skills, we say difficult situations, not people.

00:08:34: So in difficult situations.

00:08:38: You're going to try and find a shared goal.

00:08:40: That's going to be the most important thing, I think.

00:08:43: And it may

00:08:44: seem like your goals are really different because the owner might feel that your goal is just to make money and you may feel that the owner's goal is not to follow your advice and you have very different goals.

00:09:01: when you dig a bit deeper into it with again the open-ended questions, I'm gonna keep repeating this I think, you probably find out that you have a similar goal, that you both want the animal to get better, that you both want to do the best thing for the animal, but maybe the owner feels that euthanasia is the best at this point and you feel that something else is the best, but you have this shared, this common goal of doing what is best and just acknowledging that to the owner, like, okay, or asking them first, like, what is your goal?

00:09:35: What is important to you?

00:09:36: And then acknowledging like, okay, hey, I hear that you don't want your animal to be in pain.

00:09:41: I also don't want your animal to be in pain.

00:09:46: And then trying to go from there, like, okay, how can we find a way that we can get to the shared goal that we have?

00:09:54: So I think the concept of having a shared... goal or identify a common goal in these conversations seems to me like being something that you should really strive to accomplish either verbally from the owner or with all the communication that you had that you can.

00:10:14: kind of that you're sure.

00:10:17: that you have identified this common goal because I think that that's basically the baseline of it all if you want to have a successful treatment plan and not end up as a treatment failure or how do you look on that at least with the shared or common goal identification.

00:10:37: Yeah, I think that's really important.

00:10:38: And I think that a pitfall might be for veterinarians that they think that they know the goal of the owner.

00:10:46: That you think you come to this table, it's all competition horses.

00:10:52: So you think you know that the goal is going to be that this horse recovers as soon as possible and can go back into competition.

00:11:02: goals might change, and you might not be aware of that.

00:11:07: In cattle, for example, there's a lot of motivational interviewing research with cattle veterinarians, and one of the practical tips that they gave there was, for example, to with new year, around new year, to just ask the farmer about their goals.

00:11:25: You cannot ask them about their goals every time that you visit, that's normal, but just to every now and then just ask about, you know, what's actually your plans for the farm in the next year?

00:11:35: Because you might think that you know what the goal is, but it might have changed because there might be circumstances, personal circumstances that you don't know about, the rider might become pregnant.

00:11:49: the horse might retire soon and you might not know about this.

00:11:54: Yeah, so coming into that competitions barn, you know that particular horse and it's used to be a high-performing jumping horse and you expect that it's supposed to be back at work the next month.

00:12:08: A treatment plant for a horse like that is way different than a horse that might be on the track of a retirement because that's been in the history for a while.

00:12:18: But if you don't ask the owners, you would never know.

00:12:21: So I guess that's really, really important.

00:12:23: Yeah, I think it's really important to just.

00:12:26: I mean, you don't necessarily have to ask an open-ended question.

00:12:30: If you think you know the goal, you might also just use some reflective listening and just reflect back to them what you think the goal is, but just making sure that you really understand the goal.

00:12:40: We had a case with an Arabian stallion a couple of years ago

00:12:45: where

00:12:48: it's an Arabian stallion show type.

00:12:51: kind of, he was, I think, fifteen or sixteen years old.

00:12:54: So we thought, you know, their goal is going to be to get as much, to get him to breed as much as possible before he's going to die from the cardiac disease that he has, right?

00:13:04: But then when we talked to the owners, actually, they had a really strong bond with this horse and they just wanted to make sure that he lived as long as possible and whatever risks that there were, they were going to, you know, risks for sudden cardiac death, they wanted to avoid them.

00:13:20: So they didn't breed the horse anymore.

00:13:22: So we didn't need to have the whole conversation about effect of medication on sperm quality, because that was just not their goal.

00:13:30: And if you wouldn't ask about it, you would just assume it's a stallion.

00:13:36: This goal is going to be to breed as much as possible.

00:13:46: So you already mentioned the sort of stereotyping or the categorizing.

00:13:53: and why it's a bad idea to act according to that.

00:13:59: You also mentioned that there are different personality types.

00:14:04: If you talk to someone, you can probably also notice you have some people who act in one way and some people who act in different ways.

00:14:13: How can you, from that sort of knowledge or that perception, tailor your communication better to the individual in front of them?

00:14:23: Again, if there are any practical examples or tips that you can share, if I see this behavior, I do A, B or C.

00:14:33: Yes, so I think for this... A good thing to look at is the basic principles of motivational interviewing, which is a specific technique for communication, which was developed for behavior change.

00:14:50: They developed it first in an addiction setting.

00:14:53: So psychologists working with clients with alcohol abuse and drug addiction, those things.

00:15:01: And where they found out that what doesn't work is forcing people and trying to fix things by just giving all your advice and all the good advice.

00:15:16: and even if you really want it as a vet, you really want to help the animal and the more you want to do something, often what is going to happen is that the more the owner is going to... become more resistant.

00:15:30: It's like pulling a donkey.

00:15:33: If the donkey doesn't want to come with you, pulling harder is probably not going to work because the donkey is just going to pull harder as well.

00:15:41: And so they found out that building this relationship, that using empathy, that that works much better.

00:15:52: And one of the main things.

00:15:55: So there's a couple of communication skills that are used in motivational interviewing.

00:15:59: One of the big ones is open-ended questions.

00:16:02: I think we've mentioned that already, but also really listening

00:16:07: and active

00:16:09: listening or reflective listening is what they call it in motivational interviewing is going to be really important to find out who is that client that I have in front of me and what do they need.

00:16:21: So because it's going to be more efficient as well if you give them the information that they need and of course also the information that you need to give as a vet because you know there are some things that you probably need to tell them that are just really important no matter what they need whether they need that or not.

00:16:37: but just telling them trying to find out what they need is going to be really important and reflective listening.

00:16:46: can be really helpful there, so that's not just nodding and being silent, although that's also really important.

00:16:58: Being silent, the power of the pause at what they often call it.

00:17:03: Just when someone tells you something and you feel like you haven't gotten the whole story yet, just... do a few seconds of silence and they're probably gonna add on and give you more information that tells you who that person is and how you can handle them better but also just really making reflective statements.

00:17:22: so trying to kind of summarize also what they what they told you and not just the biomedical information not just like okay so you told me that the horse is lame for a week but also the concerns that you might have heard or that you might think that they have that to also trying to reflect that back to them.

00:17:43: so so I hear that you are concerned whether you will be able to go to this competition in a month.

00:17:53: so try to reflect those concerns and then check whether that's correct and try to find out, okay, yes, is this horizontal or somebody who cares more about, you know, being able to do that competition?

00:18:06: or is it somebody who is caring more about financial aspects of this treatment or more about, you know, just the well-being of the horse?

00:18:14: and as long as the horse doesn't have pain, that's the most important thing to me, you know, just trying to find out.

00:18:21: what the owner is up to.

00:18:23: And then the fourth skill, because it's open-ended questions, reflective listening and summarizing, that's the three first skills of motivation interviewing.

00:18:32: The fourth skill is affirmations, which is also really important.

00:18:36: If we think about that halo and horn effect, try to also reflect everything that you... think of as positive in the client to reflect that back to them, because that's going to help you also with building report.

00:18:52: So anything you hear that is positive, so maybe even if you have the Dr.

00:18:58: Google client and they tell you like, oh, but I found on the internet this and that, and maybe it's wrong information, but still try to do an affirmation of what is positive about that, which is, okay, I hear that you care a lot about your horse and it's good that you try to find out information about it and I see that you wanna help your horse, try to reflect that positive, those positive things back to the owner, is also going to be really helpful in making that owner a bit more positive towards you as well.

00:19:40: When it comes to this communication and you're having a discussion with an owner to try to understand their goals and motivations to be able to help them, what are some cues or behaviors that can help vets to understand whether a client is motivated or hesitant or when?

00:20:08: Well, actually motivational interviewing.

00:20:11: It's

00:20:11: pretty straightforward there.

00:20:12: They say there's two types of talk that you should look out for because.

00:20:19: When people are in doubt about making a behavior change they call this ambivalence.

00:20:25: So on the one hand you want to change and on the other hand you don't.

00:20:28: and for example For yourself when you think

00:20:32: well, I'm

00:20:33: gonna exercise more You know you you might say well, I'm gonna I want to exercise more but I have this knee injury so I can't run or but I have no time because I have two young children and so on.

00:20:46: So the first part like I should exercise more is change talk and the second well it doesn't necessarily have to be in this order.

00:20:56: but you know the.

00:20:57: the part where you have all kinds of arguments why you cannot or will not change that's the sustained talk.

00:21:03: so you know I have no time I have no money.

00:21:07: I cannot make this decision because my horse is you know at a stable and I don't decide what feed he's going to get.

00:21:16: So that's a sustained talk.

00:21:18: And so you try to be on the lookout.

00:21:21: for what am I hearing here?

00:21:23: Am I hearing change talk?

00:21:25: That's good.

00:21:25: That's what we're going to try and reinforce.

00:21:28: Or do we hear sustained talk?

00:21:30: And that's the cues that, you know, might not be following up on your plan in the end.

00:21:38: It

00:21:38: can also be non-verbal, those cues, so it can also be maybe a more close posture, or the owner is looking away, or they're nodding yes, or they're nodding no.

00:21:50: So you try to find out, is it change talk or sustain talk?

00:21:56: And then you try to get the owner to do more change talk, which sounds easier than it is.

00:22:03: Because

00:22:05: what

00:22:05: people say themselves is what they're going to remember.

00:22:09: So if you start pushing them when you hear sustain talk, so you say, well, no, you should just do this and you just have to adapt the diet or you just have to, you know, give this medication twice daily and they just keep on going with yes, but the yes, but is also sustained talk.

00:22:30: Yes, but I have no time and so on.

00:22:32: What they're going to remember is all the things they said, all the reasons why they cannot do it.

00:22:37: So you wanna try and get them to say more change talk themselves.

00:22:46: And how do you get them to do

00:22:47: that?

00:22:49: Well, that's of course the hard question.

00:22:54: So what you want is actually to evoke, they say, this change talk.

00:23:01: And you're not going to do that by asking.

00:23:04: Well, you can ask them a little bit about the hurdles and the barriers so that you know what these barriers are.

00:23:09: But then you want to go and try and.

00:23:14: ask the right questions to get them to talk more about change.

00:23:17: And it depends on which stage of change they are in, what that question is going to be.

00:23:22: Because when they're, for example, still in the pre-contemplation stage, when they're not thinking about any actions at all, because they feel that there's not really a problem, then you can, for example, ask them how do you feel about the situation at the moment, what do you think about the weight of the horse?

00:23:44: And

00:23:44: what you could also try and do is if they're a little bit further in the stages of change, you know,

00:23:52: and

00:23:53: they're thinking of, yeah, maybe I should change, but it's too hard, you know.

00:23:58: try and just really ask them, like, to you, what would be the advantages of change?

00:24:02: What would be

00:24:04: the advantage

00:24:05: of, you know, if your horse is not coughing anymore, and if the asthma, if we can solve the asthma, and just having them talk about that, you know, like, oh, yeah, then I might be able to ride him again, or, you know, just having them talk about the advantages of change?

00:24:24: or maybe about also the disadvantages of not changing, like what is the problem at the moment.

00:24:32: And then if they are more into the action phase, if they are more in the...

00:24:37: and

00:24:38: thinking about actually making the change, then again instead of you like forcing on them like you know you have to change the bedding and you have to do this and you have to do that, try to ask them the questions like what could you do to make the environment dust free?

00:24:54: What can you do here at this table?

00:24:57: Again, they will talk about the change and that's what you want.

00:24:59: that they say Well, maybe I could do this.

00:25:02: Maybe I could do that and then you reinforce that with your affirmations like yeah, that would be great if you could change that.

00:25:09: Or you can use some reflective listening again to summarize what they said.

00:25:13: So that's that's like the basis of motivational interviewing is trying to get them to talk about the change And not you because the more you talk about it the more they're gonna think of why it's so hard to do it.

00:25:27: Yeah That sounds like excellent tips.

00:25:30: Probably going to have to be practiced quite a lot, because I don't think that this is something you learn in a session, but definitely... Yes,

00:25:41: it's a need if you really want to get good at motivational interviewing and become like a motivational interviewing practitioner.

00:25:48: You need lots of training, but I think even small steps, even if it's just asking... one of those questions or just being aware of, hey, what I hear at this point is actually sustained talk because I hear yes, but

00:26:04: and

00:26:05: it's not going to help if I'm just going to give more arguments here about why they have to do it because they're just going to explain you even more why they cannot do it.

00:26:15: And just, okay, at that point, it doesn't.

00:26:18: It doesn't really make sense to force them into something, but it just makes more sense to take a step back, even use some empathy and just saying, okay, I get that it's probably really difficult for you to do this and then have a pause.

00:26:33: Probably the owner might say something like, Yeah, but it's gonna be important to change, right?

00:26:39: And then again, they are doing the change talk.

00:26:42: Okay, and maybe they're just gonna say, no, it's really impossible for me to do this.

00:26:47: Okay, then we're gonna have to take another step back.

00:26:50: Yeah, I also wanted to comment that once in a while, changes can seem impossible during the conversation.

00:26:58: But something that I've learned is to to make a conversation in a couple of days to follow up and say... Okay, so what do you think about the suggestions?

00:27:12: Have you made any effort?

00:27:14: And then all of a sudden, you'll also be surprised of how many things are actually possible because you gave them a chance to just step back instead of committing a hundred percent to the changes right there.

00:27:25: And then they got a few days to think it over.

00:27:29: And then all of a sudden, everything is possible.

00:27:31: It's actually quite surprising that if you back off a little bit and release the pressure, then they become very inventive and thinking about it.

00:27:42: So I think that's an important point as well.

00:27:46: Yeah, that's really important.

00:27:47: And it's also, again, in that stages of change, I mean, if somebody, when you just start a conversation is still like in that pre-contemplation phase where they didn't even think that this was a problem yet, and then you expect them within one consultation to really get into action, I mean, Nothing is impossible, but it's gonna be really hard.

00:28:09: So, yeah, you might need

00:28:12: a

00:28:12: couple of conversations about this and just be happy with the small steps, you know, with them saying, okay, maybe I should do something, but it's impossible.

00:28:22: I cannot do it.

00:28:23: And then the next time you talk to them, maybe, you know, they have some time to think over, to think it over, and they're, maybe they moved a little bit further into the stages of change, yeah.

00:28:35: I think it's really interesting also because it sounds almost like you're.

00:28:40: you're using the the yes but argument sort of to your advantage when you say I understand that this must be really difficult for you and then it's the yeah but I could probably do it like it's the reverse.

00:28:55: you know what I mean.

00:28:57: so yeah that's a and and just you're.

00:29:01: you're not really used to Because I think also as a vet or as any profession where you're helping others, you really want to fix their problems.

00:29:14: It's like your first sort of instinct to come up with the solution and you want to fix the problem.

00:29:20: But if you just take like a step back and say, I really understand that this is hard for you and not in the same instant try to sort of attempt to fix it for them.

00:29:32: then that's going to start the thinking process at their end as

00:29:36: well.

00:29:36: Yeah, that's what you want, right?

00:29:38: Because that's actually at the core of motivational interviewing, that even though some owners might seem like the difficult type, what you want is just to... you know, unlike that little flame that is in there, that they do want the best for their animal and that they do want to change.

00:29:58: If it's not there, you're not going to make it happen anyway, but at the core of motivational interviewing is that you approach everybody as, you know, that they really, they do want to do the best thing, but maybe they just cannot.

00:30:14: or they just don't see it, or they just don't see the problem, they're not aware of it,

00:30:19: but

00:30:19: you approach them in a positive way, yeah.

00:30:24: I mean, you have been doing a lot of research on client communication and client motivation within the veterinary industry or in veterinary medicine.

00:30:36: Do you think that vets generally have a lot of biases that they need to sort of deal with, or do you think that this is not as big of a problem when it comes to people that want to help others.

00:30:51: Are we generally less biased than others?

00:30:55: I definitely think that that's

00:30:58: in

00:30:58: general are often very nice people, people that want to help others.

00:31:06: But that doesn't mean that you don't have bias.

00:31:10: I mean, everybody has a bias.

00:31:12: It's normal.

00:31:13: Again, it's human psychology.

00:31:15: And just knowing that you have a bias is, I think, the first step.

00:31:22: Just daring to admit, yes, I do have a bias.

00:31:27: And that bias, I mean, it can be towards owners.

00:31:30: I think common bias is probably just your... arrive somewhere at the table or you know or the owner comes to your clinic and you just.

00:31:40: you see their car you see their house you see the way they're dressed and you already are biased and you think oh you know this is might be somebody who's gonna spend a lot of money or this is somebody who will not be able to afford treatment.

00:31:53: and I think that probably all of us have been surprised by how somebody who seemed like they were gonna spend a lot of money then.

00:32:03: doesn't want to do whatever you propose and then somebody who seems to be

00:32:09: not

00:32:09: be able to afford the treatment is then going to be the one who would rather sell their car to be able to pay for colic surgery than not do the surgery.

00:32:24: And I think those moments where you are surprised by something Those are the moments that show you that you do have a bias.

00:32:33: So actually you should look out for those moments where you think, hey, I'm surprised that this owner is saying this or doing that.

00:32:41: These are the biases.

00:32:42: And we even have biases towards animals.

00:32:45: I don't know if it's same in Scandinavia, but we say like the chestnut mares.

00:32:48: They're a little bit crazy.

00:32:52: So that's the bias that you have there, that you see a certain breed or a certain type of horse or a type of dog, maybe.

00:32:59: And you have your bias.

00:33:02: This is probably going to be the character of this animal.

00:33:06: So I think everybody has a bias.

00:33:11: And are there any tools or specific training methods that you could recommend that could help VET to become aware of their own biases then?

00:33:23: So there are some tools.

00:33:25: So there's, for example, Harvard has the called the implicit association test, which is where it's a quite boring test, actually, where you have to link words to other words.

00:33:42: So for example, and you have to click really fast so that you're actually trying to test what is subconscious.

00:33:49: You're implicit bias.

00:33:50: It's not what you rationally think.

00:33:52: So I tested it.

00:33:53: I thought I didn't have a bias towards people with foreign names.

00:33:57: So I thought I'll take this test and they just give you names of people which are more common for your own culture and then names which are more foreign.

00:34:08: And then you have to associate the names with positive or negative.

00:34:13: words.

00:34:15: And then you have to do, for example, the more foreign names with positive words than the more foreign names with negative words and so on and different.

00:34:23: You have to do this four or five times.

00:34:25: I don't remember.

00:34:26: And then they measure your bias and turns out that I do have a bias, even though I don't want to have a bias.

00:34:32: But Yeah, subconsciously you're always kind of biased towards being more positive about what you know really well and being a bit maybe more negative about the things that you don't know so well.

00:34:46: So you could take the test.

00:34:49: But yeah, it's not really a fun test, but it can tell you about whether you have a bias and whether you have a very strong bias or not.

00:34:57: Luckily, I didn't have a very strong bias, but still, I was disappointed.

00:35:03: But

00:35:03: what you can do about it is really try and challenge yourself by trying to talk to... People and and and being curious about people and having yourself surprised.

00:35:18: So trying to talk to people that you wouldn't talk to because you know they're you think they're different from you and then maybe you're surprised that they actually have the same ideas as you have, same concerns.

00:35:35: And really, I think looking for that surprise is really important.

00:35:39: So whenever you feel like you're surprised about something, think of why is this surprising to me?

00:35:45: And then also, when you are making a judgment about someone, like about that difficult owner, for example.

00:35:54: Also try to think, could this also be an advantage somehow?

00:35:58: Like maybe that difficult owner who is always, you know,

00:36:03: coming

00:36:03: up with new theories that they found on the internet and, you know, could my horse have this or could it be that?

00:36:11: What's the advantage in that?

00:36:12: and the advantage as well?

00:36:14: This is somebody who is really interested, who is really trying to do the best for their animal.

00:36:20: And maybe if we can just point them out to good information, then this can be actually really helpful for us if they're going to read the right things on the internet instead of the wrong information.

00:36:34: So thinking of your judgment as what could be the advantage of, for example, being a little bit less, you say it's focused on the details.

00:36:47: Maybe some people are like, oh, you know, whatever, I just have my horse on posture and it's out there and it's happy.

00:36:52: Well, what's the advantage of that?

00:36:53: Well, maybe the advantage is that they have their horse out on posture all day.

00:36:58: And you know, it's actually for the horse, maybe it's the horse is happier than being in a stable all day and being monitored by an owner who is very, very focused on all the details and the supplements, but the horse actually doesn't get enough time out on the posture.

00:37:14: so it's yeah trying to think of

00:37:16: that.

00:37:20: Very good and handy tools and tips there.

00:37:23: Thank you so much for for this episode Annalise, very interesting and I think we all have as you say a bias and we could all do well I think with thinking about them and become aware of them and that would probably help a lot just to to be aware of it.

00:37:43: Thank you so much.